PROCEEDINGS HELD BEFORE THE BALDWIN COUNTY COMMISSION
(Work Session)
Tuesday, April 13, 2010

COUNTY COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:

Charles "Skip" Gruber
Frank Burt
David Bishop
Wayne Gruenloh

ALSO PRESENT:

Scott Barnett, Esquire
Michael Thompson, County Administrator
David Brewer, Assistant County Administrator

A-2 - BALDWIN COUNTY PROJECT NO. 0202408 - NEW ROAD CONSTRUCTION - GRADE, DRAIN, BASE, PAVE AND BRIDGE 1-10 SERVICE ROAD FROM WOODROW LANE TO BASS PRO DRIVE

MS. WANDA GAUTNEY: Yes, sir. This is Baldwin County Project Number 0202408, a new road construction, grade, drain, and base, pave, and bridge 1-10 service road from
Woodrow Lane to Bass Pro Drive for Baldwin County Commission. This is to authorize me and the Baldwin County Highway Department to advertise the competitive bid for this construction contingent upon receiving authorization from -- from AL DOT approving the plans, estimates, and bid documents. And Cal Markert is here to talk about that, if you have any questions.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Cal.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MR. CAL MARKERT: I got a map I wanted to show you. And I think we have several citizens here who would like to talk about the project. As you know, Commissioners, we've been working on this now almost three years. And it originally started out as just an AL DOT interchange project. And we got it changed to where we could access it from the north side. AL DOT has moved their schedule up. They're trying to let their interchange this summer as well. We have an agreement with Timber Creek for their two million dollars towards the project that's up in August; an agreement with Cypress Equities for their half a million; and an agreement with Daphne for their million; and AL DOT has got two million. So all that money is paying for the project. And we are trying our best to get the project let by the
end of June, so we're advertising now to get our paperwork done so that we can send out bids. This is the interchange. And you can see you'll have ramps coming and going. And then this is the connecter road. It starts here and comes to here.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Okay. Well, I -- I can answer questions or --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: When you say Timber Creek, you're not talking about the subdivision Timber Creek; you're talking about who?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Timber Creek Land Company, I believe. I don't know the exactly -- the exact name.

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, if -- for citizens, if you would --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yeah.

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: -- state your name for the record if -- if you speak so that we can get it on the record, who -- who spoke.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yeah. Okay.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Audra Kirkland. I'm not understanding, Cal, why we're going forward with this when Mobile ~nfirmary pulled out. My understanding is -- And y'all
correct me if I'm wrong -- but Highway 31 is going to be going four lanes. When the interchange was done, it was based on a study that is now outdated due to 181 going to four lanes. You know, why don't we redo the -- the study to see if the interchange needs to come through and Woodrow Lane?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Well, the -- you know, 181 is not four lane. That makes this even more important to get people --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: What is all --

MR. CAL MARKERT: -- north and south.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: -- the construction for?

MR. CAL MARKERT: That's for --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: It's not right now.

MR. CAL MARKERT: That's for the first section, and they've got four more sections to go. So their --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: And --

MR. CAL MARKERT: -- their letting dates are probably five or six years out.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Okay. My question to you is if it's not four lane -- I know it's not now -- but isn't that what it's intended to be, is four lanes?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Right.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Okay. Four to five years out.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Right.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: How long is it going to take to develop Woodrow Lane? How long is that project?

MR. CAL MARKERT: To build the project, or what do you mean by "develop"?

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: To pave it, to get it cleared out --

MR. CAL MARKERT: It'll probably take twenty-four months.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Okay. The interchange. My understanding from the State, the funding is still there, but it's on the back burner. Like I said, Mobile Infirmary pulled out. They're not coming in. Why is it such -- just so important to push this through now and not give the residents of Timber Creek a time to get a gasp on this?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Okay.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Because this is the value of my property.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Right.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: That's all I have.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Right. Commissioners, let me back up. We had -- since Friday, I've probably gotten thirteen e-mails from residents of Timber Creek. Brian Thomlason, Frank Morrow, Tom O'Hara, Joe Whitlow Stewart, Paul Hands, Bill Smith, Eddie Presley, Bob and Carol Smith, Rebecca Matthews, William Card, Lee Hale and Mr. August Columbo. And basically summarizing, there's some kind of development going on with the golf course. They've got to the residents a week or so ago. And they have asked that I read the e-mails to you, but I don't want to take all that much time. Basically they don't want the service road. They don't want the golf course developed because it will destroy their property values. They say it's a road to nowhere. And they're asking us to stop the project. I wanted you to all hear and let's all talk about it and put it together. I'll respond back to them in -- in a way we're all on the same page. And I'll try to explain what I know that's going on. This is the golf course. And if you look closely, that's all a parcel. It's my understanding that the golf course is sold, and this nine holes didn't sell. And the rumor is that's going to be developed. But I wanted to point out Woodrow Lane is -- is already paved to here. One of the questions -- I'm sorry -- in the e-mail is why did we pave Woodrow Lane. Well, the biggest reason was environmental concerns. The City of Daphne was writing us up. ADEM was writing us up for siltation and erosion off of this dirt road into the creek coming down through here. And we've had a plan to pave it since I've been here. And then once we started this project, we got funding to go ahead and get that paved.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Cal, who pays for that paving? And I don't mean to interrupt you.

MR. CAL MARKERT: The County.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: The County --

MR. CAL MARKERT: Yep.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: -- pays for that. Allen Cox did not put up any --

MR. CAL MARKERT: No.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: -- money to pave that?

MR. CAL MARKERT: That was a --

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: No.

MR. CAL MARKERT: -- County-maintained dirt road. We paid to scrape it twelve time a year --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: All right.

MR. CAL MARKERT: -- haul dirt to it, haul gravel to it, answer all the complains from Daphne. And we paved it. We're glad we paved it. It stopped the environmental problem. And so -- so that's where that is. So --

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Well, Cal, I think it's important that -- that they understand that you paved it because it's a part -- was a part of this process that you were also working on all the -- all the way.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Well, it was a -- it was a dirt road. Like I said, when -- when I first got here, I remember Mitch was getting complaints from Daphne and ADEM about the erosion of the road. We had to get it paved to stop that erosion. But once this project started, that helped us get funding. We went ahead and -- and got that part paved as quick as we could and grassed and put in rip rap.

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: Cal, is -- is --

MR. CAL MARKERT: So that's where we are.

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: The -- the letters that you received, is the concern really about the service road, or is the concern about the development of that property? Because the --

MR. CAL MARKERT: My opinion is --

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: -- the way I look at it is since the -- since the road is there, it could be developed whether the service road goes in or not; right?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Right. The development of the golf course has really spurred on bringing everybody's attention to the project. And -- and they want to stop the
project, hoping they can stop this development. One of the e-mails -- and -- And I'll say, you know, if I lived on the golf course and they were going to develop it, I'd be upset, too. There's no doubt about it.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Okay.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Can I please finish? I'm not going to talk long. I promise.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Please. Yeah. Let's finish one so we can get --

MR. CAL MARKERT: But one of the e-mails said we've done this without people knowing and so on. But we've been in the commission meeting and then the paper March 8, June 14, September 18, February 8, all of that was in those seven; then February 8 of '08, December 15 of '09, December 15 again in '09. There's been several newspaper articles. We had an advertised public hearing at Daphne High School. We had several folks from Timber Creek come to the public hearings, sign the document stating they were for the project. We had people from the property owners association at the public hearing. I went to a property owners association meeting, working and trying to work on some mitigation for wetlands. So we have not intentionally kept this project from anybody's view. We've tried our best to advertise it and get
comments. And we feel like we've done that. And that's one thing in the e-mails I totally disagree with. This hasn't been any secret project. We've been out in the open the whole time. But when the word came out about the golf course being developed, obviously there's some very upset folks. And they're asking us for help to stop that. It's all in the City of Daphne. It's all in Daphne's planning jurisdiction. It's in Daphne's zoning jurisdiction. And, you know, I just don't know what we can do with the road to stop this golf course from turning into a commercial development. This is the interstate they're going to have and -- and this is the road that's been there, I don't know, fifty years, I guess, as long as I can remember looking back on the records. That's got a view from the interstate, and here is the interchange. My opinion, that could be developed with or without this road. So I -- this may make it more appealing. But that's where we are. One of the questions in all the e-mails is -- is why do we need the road? The traffic studies show between this development and this development and people coming north to both of them, you're looking three to four thousand cars a day going back and forth to the retail centers. And, you know, if that three or four thousand is -- is on the interstate, it -- it's just going to make things worse.  We feel like it's our -- in the best interest the county, definitely maybe not in the best interest of Timber Creek since this thing has come up with the golf course. But it's a -- it's -- it's not a road to nowhere. It's connecting up a lot of major retail centers to serve the public. So we've kind of got a difficult situation. But we believe the interchange is definitely needed. I -- I do. It's the best thing for the county. And I just don't know what to do. I don't know how we can stop the golf course. You know, somebody else owns that. And I don't know -- know what we can do.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

COMMISSIONER FRANK BURT: Mr. Chairman, just to add to that is; if I might, you know, Representative Randy Davis was involved in this from the start, in promoting it and working with Governor Riley. Governor Riley was fine with the project all the way, has been. AL DOT, it was an AL DOT project. And we all worked together, knowingly and as public as we knew how, to -- to develop the project. And the project is now what the project was from the very beginning, I -- I mean, other than environmental issues with the -- with the folks at Timber -- I mean, at Lake Forest and their -- Their lake has still siltation problems. And my understanding and the way the County and the State has worked with the Court on that, it will -- this project will actually help resolve some of their problems with the lake, is
what my understanding was from the environmentalist and others. And Daphne, like you say, has agreed from the start to put a million dollars towards the project. And it all started, I guess, more than three years ago. And --

MR. CAL MARKERT: Yeah. In '07.

COMMISSIONER FRANK BURT: -- I -- I understand this. And -- and we didn't know anything about any change in the golf course or any of that other stuff until just recently. And that's -- that's when -- when all these e-mails came out, then that's when we found out what had really initiated the difficulty with the problem, was something that's happened within the owners of that property and something they've done. But I -- and I don't know what that is. I don't want to say what that is. All I've heard is what somebody said. And -- and -- and I really don't know anything factual to say about that. The factual thing I know, Mr. Chairman, is that the
project has been the project from the very beginning. And it's still what it was when we started.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Well --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: I think --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Anybody familiar with this can see what's going on. And I'm not blaming y'all. We just were not informed rightly so by our POA and others. But they have leased that golf course for five years and keep telling us that it's a golf course for five years. That's what I'm seeing it's going to take to get these roads developed, the interchange developed. And when that happens after, say, five years -- you're saying two-and-a-half on that -- the value of that golf course, you're talking I would think at least twenty million dollars. So they're leasing it out instead of letting it sit there and make no money. So when all that is developed, they're going to make money. I'm going to lose money. These people sitting here are going to lose money. Okay. The project has been in effect. Well, whose -- whose idea was it to do this? Did a citizen come to y'all to suggest this? Do I need to get the minutes and the agendas and look at that? I mean, whose idea? I have an idea who I think that it was in my research that I have done already. So I'm asking y'all, who brought that up to y'all, or was it a decision that the City and the County decided they wanted to do.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: I think some of this -- this 13 project --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Yes, sir.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: -- that's been in the mill for --

COMMISSIONER FRANK BURT: Ten or eleven --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: -- I don't know --

COMMISSIONER FRANK BURT: Ten or eleven years.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: -- ten --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Okay.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: -- or twelve years. That's been in for a long, long time.

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: And that --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Is that all drawn in your plans?

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: When they -- What?

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Is that in the -- our City of Daphne twenty-year plan?

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: I don't know about --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: I didn't see it.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: -- what's in the City's, you know. But --

COMMISSIONER FRANK BURT: Yeah.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: -- when they were talking about going this 181 --

MR. CAL MARKERT: It's in the --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Okay.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: When they were talking about doing 181 and then we were still having all this problems over here with the traffic, you know, and linking this was another way of relieving the traffic on 181. And, you know, it's just like any other system. When this is completed, it's going to be obsolete because of the -- the amount of people that have moved to this area, you know. That four-lane is not going to be -- it's not going to be a thing. That's why
this is very important, the 13 part of it. You know, that connects all the way from U.S. 98. It'd be a direct link from there all the way to the interstate.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Well, there was other big factor in there, too, with even before Bass Pro Shop was ever started, it was how can they get this road to make that project viable? That was their -- part of it through the State and through Representative Davis. I recall discussions on that also with that -- those people. And then the hospital was another big thing that -- of course, they've withdrawn that. But the Bass Pro Shop was involved in it for sure.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Mr. Thompson.

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: Well, one thing, too, that I want to point out, you know, keep in mind, the -- the Road and Bridge Department, they're -- they're chartered with, you know, taking care of -- of -- of -- of road needs of our citizens. And one thing that they do is they do traffic studies and they forecast the -- the volumes that we anticipate based upon the growth of the county and so forth. And -- but, Cal, you correct me if I'm wrong -- but if I remember, the traffic studies that you guys had and the projections that was developed by the Control Center, that east/west route on Interstate 10 was doubling over the next ten or fifteen years in terms of volume of traffic. So one of the issues is that -- is -- is how do you handle increasing traffic that substantially on Interstate 10? I understand your point. And if I was living on that golf course, I would want to make sure it's a golf course; okay? I understand that completely. But without the service road, five years from now or ten years from now, subdivisions in and around that area are going to be right back here complaining about the congestion on the existing roads and that they're not big enough and they can't handle the traffic and you can't get home from work and so forth. So, you know, we're trying to strike a balance, I guess
is the point I want to make. And -- and, you know, it -- it didn't come from thin air. It came from studies of what we think the traffic situation is going to be in the county over time. I mean, we're a fast-growing county, one of the fastest growing counties in the state.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: You know, our protections, you know, we're looking, you know, about -- was it 2020 or something like that, the economists have shown that our -- our population is going to explode by another two hundred thousand people, you know. But, you know, that's -- that's -- that's got a lot of factors that play into it. You know what I mean? You know, and that's where the -- the Highway Department does all this planning. They -- they have to look at the long range. Because projects like this don't happen overnight. It takes --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Well --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: -- years, like this one here. Now, we've -- you know, this -- like this here, that's been -- I know it's been ten or twelve years and we still haven't completed it, you know. They've just now have finished -- we have finally got all the links from 98 up to 90 now. And then this was the State that said, yes, they would do that once that was all done. And I think --

MR. CAL MARKERT: South of there, just north of State Route 104 up to County Road 64, there was a gap. And we've just built that project. So you can go from 98 all the way to 90 now. And, obviously, a long-time -- a long-range goal has been to be able to go all the way to the interstate.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Okay. For the funding of the project -- And this is what I have somewhat found out -- that the Millers are donating to that. Is that true?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Scott, it's -- it's not the Millers. It's the Timber Creek Land Company.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Well, that is the Miller family.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Okay. Well, then --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Yeah. I've already checked.

MR. CAL MARKERT: -- you know more about it than I do.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: I've looked, and they're --

MR. CAL MARKERT: Yeah. They're putting that --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: -- all the Miller family that owns the golf course.

MR. SCOTT BARNETT: The -- the -- the legal entity we've been dealing with is the Timber Creek Land Company and that -- we haven't --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: That's Richard, Sandy, and Tim.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Okay. Is the --

MR. SCOTT BARNETT: Timber Creek Land Company is the corporation that we've been dealing with.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Okay. So they're putting in two million.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Cypress Equity?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Cypress Equity, five hundred thousand; AL DOT, over two million; Daphne, a million; and the County, two-and-a-half million.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: But can y'all see the interest of the Miller family putting money into this when they own the golf course?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Definitely.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: But, you know, I just hear -- lately hear that the -- the golf course is zoned, what, B-1?

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: B-2.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: B-2?

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: And it's --

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: And I -- and -- and I'm just wondering if --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Speak your name, please, so the --

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Okay. My name is Claudia Luft and --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: -- I am a Timber Creek resident also. And all of you -- there's -- you have been very public about your meetings. The problem is that Timber Creek Land Company was not as honest about what they were doing. So we -- there was no notification for the residents to -- to be made aware of that when the golf course was taken out of the County's hands and annexed into Daphne, that it was zoned B-2. We were never given any notification so that we could say anything, that we would object to our backyards becoming business. I mean, there was nothing there. Our first notification of that was three weeks ago.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Yeah. That's the first time I heard of it.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Three weeks ago --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yeah.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: -- did we find out that our backyards were now going to be open for commercial development. Now, I know about business, and I know the importance of growth in the county. And I respect the job that you are doing. However, the way it was done was wrong. And as members of Baldwin County, it is very discerning to think that that was allowed to happen. We were at a Daphne City Planning meeting yesterday. We were told and these -- My other members here can correct me if I'm wrong. They did not understand how that was zoned the way it was changed and how it got through and signed by a judge. So now it was law. And a done deal is a done deal. Nothing we can do about it. You know, the -- the sad thing is the older I get, the more disappointed I get in my fellow man. You know, as a retired educator, it's very difficult for me to defend some adult actions to our children. And if we keep letting people say, oh, we're sorry, but what's done is done -- and I guess
that's why we're here this morning, is to say it's not done yet. Is there anything that you can do as a body to get this type of thing stopped? And -- and I'm listening to Cal -- if I said your name wrong, I apologize.

MR. CAL MARKERT: That's right.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: -- say that y'all are doing this to prevent runoff and -- and that type of thing. There was a gentleman at the meeting yesterday that said that if the road was continued on to the -- the Bass Pro Shop, that it would be devastating to the environment, that the runoff would increase and make much more destruction to that. So I -- and I don't know about things like that, and this gentleman seemed to and --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: He was with the Corps of Engineers.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: -- so I just -- Could you look into it more before committing? And I'm sorry. In this economic times, good gracious, that's a lot of money. I mean,
we just -- all of us had to just vote on a one cent sales tax to help our schools. I mean, goodness. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Mr. Thompson.

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, I'll just mention, last night I spoke to Daphne City Council's attorney a little bit about this. And, you know, unfortunately the City of Daphne, they don't have a -- a zoning district for recreation. You know, we have a recreational district, you know, that we use in -- in unincorporated Baldwin County. But -- but they don't have one. So when they have something like a golf course, they can't drop it into a recreational zoning code. That's why I believe they put it in -- in -- in a -- a business district. Because, you know, it's a golf course. They make money off people playing on the golf course. So I
guess it more -- more linked to business than residential. So -- so just so you understand, that happens to be the issue; that they -- they just don't have a -- a recreational district. Now, I don't think they could create a recreational district and change that zoning. Maybe they could. But I did speak to Mayor Small this morning about it some as well. And he assured me on the phone that even though it's a business district, if that developer wanted to put something where that golf course sits now, they would have to come before the City Council, and the City Council would have to approve what they propose. Now, you know, I -- I know sitting in your seat -- And I would, too -- you know, you would be relying on your local, you know, government to -- to make sure the right thing happens. But I guess the point that I do want to make is that there -- there -- there are steps that that developer would have to take to move forward and it'd have to be approved by the City
Council in order for them to take those steps. And -- and, you know, I haven't heard that here yet. I just wanted to make sure you-all were aware of that.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Well, the City Council can -- they'd have to approve.

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: They -- they could -- Yeah, they could choose to approve or -- or disapprove whatever the developer proposes on there.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: I do want to just add one other thing. And -- and, like I said, this has all been learned in the last three weeks; that when the golf course -- golf courses were put up for sale, the Magnolia Nine, which is what we're discussing, was not. The other two were. And not only were they put up for sale, they were then put in a conservation project. Therefore they can never be developed. If Timber Creek Land Development chose to put Magnolia Nine up, they could have done the same thing.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: You know, this is the --

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: They chose not to --

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: -- first time I've heard this --

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: -- because of money.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: This is the first time I've heard any of this discussion.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Sir.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Well, you know how we feel.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: State your name.

MR. BILL CARR: Briefly. I'm Bill Carr. I live on Green Court in Timber Creek. And I want to say, Mr. Markert, I was at the Daphne High School meeting. We've living -- we ' ve lived there for four-and-a-half years. What I have heard about the service road in my letter to him and to the Commission -- I wrote the Commission about
two-and-a-half years ago and about a year ago stating that I objected to the service road for two reasons; financially and the destruction of the wetlands,  especially with D'Olive Creek.  I'm not saying his study is wrong. I think it's outdated. And I would -- I would encourage y'all very much to look at those wetlands. Because I am -- I'm a big recycle guy and big on keeping what is correct. I do agree with what Audra and this lady said. And they are two different subjects. But there were a lot people who were at the Daphne High School meeting who voiced to some of his people that we objected to that. Because I -- I'm not saying in the future it's not needed. And I do realize and I appreciate the fact of how long it takes to get a project going like this. I just don't think it's the correct time to do it now. I don't see it for the evacuation. I don't see it for the traffic.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay. All right.

MR. BOB SMITH: Mr. Chairman.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yes.

MR. BOB SMITH: I'm Bob Smith. I live in Timber Creek on Green Court. My issue with this project is the funding, I assume, is available from all the participants as
has been stated; is that correct?

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yeah.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Sir?

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yes.

MR. BOB SMITH: Is the funding available from all of those who are concerned? You mentioned as -- as a -- a million dollars from here, five hundred thousand from there. Is all that money available?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Yes, sir. As far as I know, we have an agreement. We haven't received any of it until certain things happen, then we would received it.

MR. BOB SMITH: What are those certain things happening, sir?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Starting the project.

MR. BOB SMITH: Okay. It -- it seems to me that in the economic environment that we are in right now, the country, the counties, the cities, that we're in, we've got to look at every dollar that we spend. In my opinion, and it's a humble one, I don't believe that the -- the construction of the continuation of that road, Woodrow Lane, and the I-lO/Highway 13 interchange is appropriate at this time. As I say, that's a humble opinion. But each of us have our dollars and cents that we've got to
keep in mind, and you certainly have for the county. The issue then becomes do we do it now or do we table it until such time as the environment and the -- the economics will support it. My -- my second observation from my point of view is why do we need the interchange on the north side? As I understand it, it was -- it was approved or at least considered to just do the south side of it; is that correct.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Originally.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Originally, the interchange would have been on the north side, but you can only access it from the south side.

MR. BOB SMITH: Okay. But -- but the point -- my point is, why do we need the north side? If we're talking about an evacuation route to Highway -- to Highway 1-10, what you have just said would certainly suffice. Why do we do the north side and spend all that extra money plus the environment? Which I -- I'm not an environmental expert, certainly. But I hear that the D'Olive Creek, the Timber Creek portion of it and the Lake Forest subdivision portion of it is certainly up for consideration. And is a -- it's a difficult situation to handle. More -- more than just Timber Creek is involved in the environment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Mr. Chairman, I can try to answer that.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MR. CAL MARKERT: The original interchange actually had them -- I'm trying to speak from memory -- probably took up more space and more wetlands than this interchange. It was -- it was called a trumpet-style interchange. And a lot of it was up on the north side so you could come up and loop around and get on -- get on the interstate. This is a standard interchange, just a diamond, and the costs are probably about the same, the previous one versus this one. So environmental impacts and costs -- I -- I could be wrong -- but are probably close to the same. Because with the trumpet, you had to get most of the actual work on the north side of the interstate.

MR. BOB SMITH: Bob Smith. Again, Mr. Chairman, the -- the funding, to me, is -- is one of the key issues in the economic environment that we're in right now. We say we have a commitment. Are those commitments binding on all the participants?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Yes, sir.

MR. SCOTT BARNETT: Yes.

MR. CAL MARKERT: In my opinion.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yeah. They are.

MR. BOB SMITH: They are?

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIPw GRUBER: Yeah.

MR. BOB SMITH: Thank you.

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: One comment that I did want to make, because he did raise, you know, about the current economic environment and so forth. You know, the -- the
country is in a bad economic situation. Hopefully we're slowly moving out of it. But one thing that I would point out is -- is now is a real good time to do construction, you know, whether you're talking a road or whether you're talking about a -- a -- a structure. I mean, we were paying two hundred and fifty dollars a
square foot to build buildings three years ago. We're getting it at a hundred and fifteen a square foot today. And that's true with roads as well. That road in an economic upturn would probably be a factor of fifty percent higher than what we will likely get it for during this economic time period. So -- so part of it is how do we best manage taxpayer's dollars and use it -- you know, use that money at proper times, too. And I -- you know, one thing I'd argue is that if that service road is going to go in, we're not going to have a better time to bid it out than now.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Yes. Audra Kirkland. I have a question and maybe you can answer this. But I've been hearing talk of destroying the D'Olive watershed. And when you do something like that, you have to go and restore another. And that's what, Cal, I've heard your intentions or the County's intentions to -- I'm not sure -- that they're planning to do is do that with the o olive but go down to Weeks Bay and restore that watershed down there.

MR. CAL MARKERT: I -- I'll try to answer that.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Of course, this is Lake Forest. And -- and D'Olive Creek comes up right through here, I believe, somewhere right in here. But, anyway, we -- there's a small stream right there. That stream has basically been silted up by this -- these old roads. There's a little, private dirt road. That stream silted up. All of these wetlands are in poor condition. So we are -- we are having to mitigate that stream. We could mitigate by buying credits from a bank in Auburn or Tuscaloosa
or various places, or we could create a project within the watershed and mitigate what we do on our project. And that's what we were working with Daphne on. D'Olive Creek, without our project, right through here has probably got a forty-foot drop in elevation, and it's very sandy. So it's scoured out. It doesn't flood out into the wetlands any longer.  We've been working for probably two years now with the Mobile Bay National Estuary Program study -- Matter of fact, I think the Commission has funded part of that program -- to study all of D'Olive watershed, which includes worse areas and -- and other spots. So we looked at the cost of mitigating this from a bank, which is something -- you've already been through the process with the Corps. They have it set up and you can basically just go and buy credits. But we felt like it would help a lot more and we'd be a better steward if we did a project right here. The D'Olive Creek is in bad shape so we're currently designing corrections to this creek that are damaged without our project. That way we'll help Lake Forest tremendously because that should help slow down the amount of silt that gets into their lake. And it'll take -- Once Daphne can finish that study, they were going to rank -- try to rank the situations, what's the worst, and -- and start trying to get grants to do the projects. So this will get one of the -- part of one of the projects done. So we feel like our project is environmentally
friendly. And -- and it's going to be a plus for the environment. We -- we're going to have retention built into the project. So, you know, we'll have check-downs and swells and ponds so that we'll store water and not release. What I was referring to earlier about the dirt, this -- when this was a dirt road, when that was dirt and the ditches were dirt and it rained, it soaks in the dirt, carries the dirt basically down into the watershed, and silts in the creek. We had to pave it to stop that erosion, not stop the runoff. So we -- we're excited. We've got a lot of -- more work to do. But we're excited about working on D'Olive Creek with the funding for this project. AL DOT is also working with us. And we're -- we want to make it a -- a -- a good project for everybody to look at. We're trying to be leaders in that kind of -- the roadway environmental situations. And if you've seen D'Olive Creek, you know, before, this -- this is not there now. That -- it -- it's -- it's been damaged. And we're going to repair that, try to. So that's what we were -- that's what we're doing.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: And, Cal, you might want to mention about the environmental study that we did. You know, we had to go through a very intense study on that one, hired -- hired an environmental group. They went through there and done the whole study and --

MR. CAL MARKERT: Right.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: -- identified everything. When we were working on this part of it, we included that whole thing to get it all at one time so we could get a -- a study of what would -- would -- would happen to the whole thing. And, you know, the Corps looked at that already.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Right. When this was -- originally, they had an environmental study for part of it. And they went back and revised it to include --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: The whole thing.

MR. CAL MARKERT: -- the -- the whole thing. And the Federal Highway Administration approved that and approved the FONSI. I think someone from Timber Creek came by our office Friday and got a copy of the FONSI. But we could make that available to you.

MR. BOB SMITH: Mr. Chairman, a question --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yes.

MR. BOB SMITH: -- please.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MR. BOB SMITH: Bob Smith again.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MR. BOB SMITH: My -- my question is where is the proposed interchange located? Could you point it out, please?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Yes, sir. his is, of course, the proposed interchange. Can you see it?

MR. BOB SMITH: Yes, I can.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Okay. This is the backside of Magnolia, this right here.

MR. BOB SMITH: Yes, sir.

MR. CAL MARKERT: So the interchange is coming in right here. All -- there'll -- there'll be a buffer probably two hundred feet wide between the road and the back of these lots. All of this is wetland right here, so that can't be developed. And -- and also we did have comments at the public hearing about sound. And so we went back and we're putting thousands of pine trees into the project that we're going to plant on the back slopes on this side of the road and really try to create even more of a --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: A buffer.

MR. CAL MARKERT: -- a buffer, and sound, and visible, so we feel like it won't be able to be seen and -- and the noise shouldn't be any worse than -- than it is on the interstate now.

MR. BOB SMITH: Are there agricultural lands involved?

MR. CAL MARKERT: No, sir.

MR. BOB SMITH: The reason I asked the question, sir, is because we were told that there are. Now, that's hearsay.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: I don't know where they would be.

MR. CAL MARKERT: They --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Not --

MR. CAL MARKERT: They may --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Not unless it's some -- MR. CAL MARKERT: People call a few pine agricultural lands, but I don't --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: It might be silviculture or something like that.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Yeah.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: I don't know if any of the timber companies own anything. I don't know.

MR. CAL MARKERT: I don't think so. I mean, this -- this is very, very wet right through here. It can't be farmed. This is the only hill left out there. All this --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: It's not -- yeah. All right. The --

MR. BOB SMITH: My -- my final comment.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MR. BOB SMITH: We have -- Bob Smith again for the record.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MR. BOB SMITH: We have enjoyed living on the golf course. We walk Woodrow Lane and the golf course as part of our exercise program. We are enjoying a beautiful living in our retirement. It's peaceful and quiet. How do you put a price tag on that? I -- I rest with the -- with the case that I'm certainly citing me in particular, my wife and I, but there are many, many more people like us. And we ask that you consider the peace and tranquility as a part of this study and this
development, not just the economics of the situation. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Well, Mr. Chairman, if -- if -- if I could, initially, you know, going back, I don't know, three or four years when this all started and AL DOT showed us the interchange, as has been mentioned, they just showed the interchange, you know, getting on the south side and not being able to have access on the north side. When we saw that, you know, in my -- in my mind and it -- it was shared by a lot of folks, that, in the long run as far as the County is concerned, it would make more sense for that to be a full interchange, a diamond shape, where you can get on and off on the north and south side. At that time, the Eastern Shore Centre was being developed. At that time, you know, you had the -- the Bass Pro Shop, Cypress Equities, doing that development. And it seemed unanimous that, in the long, run it was going to be better for the county as far as moving people from one major retail center to another major retail center to have that service road parallel to -- to 1-10, so unique that I can't think of another time where we had so many groups, if you will, governmental agencies, you know, Cypress Equities, slash, Spanish Fort. You know, they were -- they were new. They didn't have the money to put into the -- in the plan, but they were very supportive of it. The City of Daphne, the County, the State, everyone was in agreement. I don't think I've ever seen -- and I was involved in -- in -- in us trying to put that whole
agreement together, trying to get everyone in agreement and finding the dollars to where everyone was putting something into the pot, if you will, to see that -- that that made sense. So there was an awful lot of conversation, a number of meetings to where that made sense to have that service road on the -- on the north side linking one retail center to -- to the other. Now, I've played Magnolia many times. I would hate to see Magnolia disappear. It's a -- it's a wonderful nine holes
of golf. And -- and as you're talking about it being developed, I've hit it in those ravines on -- on 9 and lost a number of balls on 9. And I can't imagine how you're going to develop that property with all of the -- the ups and downs and erosion that -- that you'd be creating trying to develop it. I can't imagine it.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: It's pretty.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: But it -- it is pretty. So I would hate to see that -- that happen. But I'm trying to separate, if you will, the service road and the
development. I -- I realize that -- that y'all are linking them together. But I don't -- I don't know that I, as a Commissioner, have any control over that development. That -- that's in the City of Daphne. You know, the -- and -- and while the service road, if it's is not there, while it may stop them or delay that, you know, I -- I -- I guess I -- I -- I still feel like that if that property was zoned conservation like the other you said, I don't know that we'd be
having this conversation.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: We wouldn't.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Okay. So the service road is a good idea.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: It is a good idea for that, but it's not a good idea. Because without the service road, there could be no development.

MR. CAL MARKERT: All right. Here's the -- here's the nine holes. This interchange puts you right here. All right. Let's say we don't build this service road. The road is already built to here. You got a view from the interstate. You -- you can get off and come -- I -- I'm not a real estate person but -- I -- I don't know.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yeah. Yeah.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: One more question or not a question. Just to let y'all know, we literally have kids that race up and down --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yeah.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: -- Green Court -- and I know this is a city -- cut through the fire department to see how fast -- I've -- I've sat there and had to call the police. They come at opposite ends from Woodrow Lane and cut through to see who can make it back first. They come in front of the Holiday Inn, hit 181, come back in the neighborhood late at night. So, to me, having that -- I would rather that be a dead end and them go down to the dead end and turn around and go back out and put a gate at the fire station. But when that happens, the more traffic or the cut-through traffic that we're going to have is unbelievable already. And I invite any one of you with the City, the County, whoever, to come sit on our front porches and just watch. I mean, it's horrible.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: I -- I'd just like to say that the intent -- I don't think anybody intended this to turn out like you-all are seeing this work. But what I -- I -- in my mind, what the intent was way back there was when this first started to be coming -- brought up for discussion was like 13 has been brought from the south. And, you know, and I live down that way. We've had to develop between 32 and 34. And we developed from 34 to 44. That was two different projects. And now we're working on from 104 to 64. The road has been coming all along to the north. And it's taken ever since I've been here, seven years or more. And so it -- it was supposed to be a project where it would finally wind up. And it got into discussion with Bass Pro Shop and all the people up there, you know, that was involved in this, and they talked to you about that. But the biggest thing about this is B-2 zoning. Is that what it is.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Yes, sir.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Never heard of it until just now. And, you know, I mean, that's a -- definitely a -- a problem. And I understand the issue there.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: And you're absolutely right.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Yeah.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: If that had never taken place, this conversation would never have taken place --

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: That's right.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: -- because Timber Creek Land Management or whatever company, if they had -- if they had been upfront or if they had zoned -- gone ahead and put the Magnolia Nine in the -- the -- I can't even say it now.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Well, and -- and as -- as Cal -- Cal mentioned, you know, with or without the service road, there's still a possibility --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: To develop.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: -- that what -- that it could be developed, that your fear, you know, could become a reality with or without the service road. So I would, you know --

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: Well, Holiday Inn --

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: I -- I'm -- I would -- I would --

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: -- is proof of that.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Well, yeah. You've already got some development up there. So I would encourage you, really the people that hold the key to this is the City of Daphne.

MR. BOB SMITH: Sure.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: We do, too.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: And I would encourage you to --

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: We are.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: -- continue with your discussion with them.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: And one thing I was, you know -- Cal can correct me on this if I'm -- I'm wrong but, you know, what we're doing here now is actually going out to see what the bid would come in at. And I think if the bids come in at such a high thing, well, if we don't have all the money, you know, I don't know if we're going to -- the project would let. I don't -- I can't -- I can't answer that until we see what the bids are, you know. Is that -- I mean, is that
where we're at?

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: This -- this is not a final deal here. This is to go get bids --

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Don't -- don't -- don't put -- don't put the kibosh on it.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: So, I mean, that's -- you know, it's a factor that we have -- we have to look at also.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Sure.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Yeah.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: And when does that happen? How long is that process?

MS. WANDA GAUTNEY: We have to advertise on this project statewide, and it's 3 we're required. So we're looking at an eight-week process before we'll know exactly.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: It's almost two months just to -- just to get it advertised.

MS. WANDA GAUTNEY: Right. To get it back to the Commission.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: And -- and then nothing is approved until that comes back. And you know how all that works. This is a formality.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay. This is just allowing the body to go forward --

MS. WANDA GAUTNEY: Right.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: -- to advertising meetings and everything else.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Right. But this is the first time we've seen what that actually looks like. That's kind of why we're here, to understand.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: And you've seen all the pieces come together --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Right.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: -- here today and -- and heard some history about it.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: And she had a question.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: It's a lot.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: I assume the yellow line is Woodrow. is --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yes. This

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: What is -- what is the --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: This is Woodrow to -- right to here.

MR. CAL MARKERT: I wish I --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: What is the green?

MR. CAL MARKERT: I wish I had separate -- Because this is end of Woodrow --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Right.

MR. CAL MARKERT: -- and the -- them.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Is that the road to nowhere?

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: They're talking about the green line.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Well, we -- we've gone to the dead end towards that state property.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Yeah.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: No trespassing.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Yeah. The green line is the construction limits --

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Okay.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Okay.

MR. CAL MARKERT: -- the back side and the front side of our road. The yellow would be the center of the road.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Right.

MR. CAL MARKERT: So this would be the edge of the right-of-way. So you'd still have this buffer between the road and there plus we're planting pine trees from the bottom of the slope all the way back up to the top and a11 the way up on -- on the field slopes, thousands of them. Yes, ma'am.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Okay. I'm talking about the buffer for that side of it. For those of us on Green Court, can we -- does the County own any part of that --

Mr. CAL MARKERT: Where --

Ms. AUDRA KIRKLAND: -- on our side?

Mr. CAL MARKERT: Where is Green Court.

Ms. AUDRA KIRKLAND: If it's in a buffer --

Ms. CLAUDIA LUFT: It's coming down Woodrow.

Ms. AUDRA KIRKLAND: SO --

Mr. CAL MARKERT: This one here?

Ms. CLAUDIA LUFT: There.

Mr. CAL MARKERT: Right here?

Ms. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Right.

Ms. CLAUDIA LUFT: Yes, sir.

Mr. CAL MARKERT: A buffer right there?

Ms. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Right.

Mr. CAL MARKERT: I don't -- I --

Ms. AUDRA KIRKLAND: They've already cut down some

MR. CAL MARKERT: I don't know. One issue is this road is actually on the interstate right-of-way. So I -- we don't have that much control. We just -- we maintain it. We have the right to have the road --

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: And I think what she's talking about, the city limits of Daphne and Spanish Fort and the county, you know, there's pieces of it -- there's a small piece of the road that belongs in the county; right, Cal?

MR. CAL MARKERT: Right. But I can look into that. I can work with Daphne and I can get --

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Have y'all ever -- ever discussed, you know, closing off the access of Green Court out?

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: It was closed for a while --

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: We don't know what happened.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: -- but the City opened it up.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yeah. That's --

MR. CAL MARKERT: I'll look into that, too.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Okay.

MR. BOB SMITH: There's a sign that say no thoroughfare --

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Yeah.

MR. BOB SMITH: -- at the fire station --

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Yeah.

MR. BOB SMITH: -- but that doesn't stop anybody.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: It doesn't seem to stop anybody.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: It should.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Well, you've got all --

MR. CAL MARKERT: The City was pushed to have that connection.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Well, but in --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: And we want them to be able to do it but --

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: And all you have to do is put a gate and press a button. As the truck comes out, it's open. The fire -- the fire station could do that. I mean
there's other -- other cities, other counties that have that type of thing.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: How long has that been -- been open? Because when I lived in Timber Creek I don't think that was opened up. I don't think you can get out that way.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: It's been open since I've -- I moved in, in '03. It was --

MR. CAL MARKERT: I didn't -- I didn't know you could do that, either.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: It's just -- it's not -- it's just a rough terrain, basically.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Well, no. It's paved.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: No. It's paved now.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: It's a fire station parking lot.

MR. CAL MARKERT: So you come out the fire station -- you have to drive through their parking lot to get --

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Correct.

MR. CAL MARKERT: And that's what you're saying kids are doing?

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Right.

MR. BOB SMITH: Adults also.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: And adults, they're just not racing.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Well, I can work -- I mean, I can -- all I can do is ask, but I'll ask the City if they'll -- if we can help them --

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Yeah.

MR. CAL MARKERT: -- do something about that --

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Yeah.

MR. CAL MARKERT: -- on the Commission's behalf.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: That would be great.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Thank you.

MR. CAL MARKERT: And -- and some kind of buffer.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Is this map online or is that anywhere that those that aren't here could see that? Because they're going to be asking us.

MR. CAL MARKERT: I don't have it online, but y'all are welcome to take that one.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Oh, thank you.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Thank you.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: That'd be great.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: This is the first we've seen of the actual interchange.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Yeah. Yeah. I -- from some of those e-mails, I could tell there was some other stuff missing out there.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Yeah. And evidently you didn't have all the facts on the B-2 and --

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: No, I didn't.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: -- the whole --

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: That's right.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Yeah.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: -- the nine -- the twenty-seven holes were considered one lot with the clubhouse, which has a bar and a restaurant; okay?

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Yeah.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: There's your B-2; okay? So what's happened is that eighteen holes were put in this conservation easement. Ours was not; okay? They've sold it.
Actually, they've already sold the other eighteen holes and -- but they're asking now for a subdivision. So once our lots become its own lot, our nine holes, that's when we're separated from everybody else and we can do -- they can do whatever they want.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Do they have --

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: And I don't blame ~ ' a l l a bit in the world.

MR. CAL MARKERT: -- a plat to develop that nine holes or are they just submitting a plat to split the Magnolia Nine from the other eighteen?

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Well, they're actually taking that one lot and subdividing it into five. They've sold four, which -- which is -- would be the other two holes, the maintenance shed, and the clubhouse. This is what we've been told.

MR. CAL MARKERT: So the clubhouse isn't on the -- on that other nine anymore?

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: No, it's not the Magnolia Nine.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Well, it's next to it. I mean --

MR. CAL MARKERT: But it's being split out.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: But it's -- it's -- that's what they're trying to do now.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Yeah.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Well, I wonder how that would go to B-2.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Well, that was our point. Why -- why are we B-2 now? We don't have a clubhouse.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Well, don't they go to the Planning Commission get that split out like that?

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: That's --

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: That's --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: -- how this all came up. That's what's going on right now.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Well, they haven't -- have they split it out yet?

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: No, sir. It has not been approved. That comes up next week. And their argument yesterday at their work session was that -- that sale should
have never happened before --

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Yeah.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yeah.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Yeah.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: -- that. And everybody is like, well, what do we do about it now?

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: And we were told that basically nothing.

MR. CAL MARKERT: Well --

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: Well --

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: Have a strong showing over there next week.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: Yeah.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Yeah.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: That's right.

MR. MICHAEL THOMPSON: Have a strong showing.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: We had a strong showing.

MS. CLAUDIA LUFT: We had one.

MS. AUDRA KIRKLAND: But we thank you for entertaining our --

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: And thank you for coming.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Thank you for coming.

MR. BOB SMITH: And we appreciate your listening to us. You know our concerns.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Yes, we do.

MR. BOB SMITH: We also recognize the advantages that the project has. But, you know --

MS. DEBBIE PRESLEY: It's just a shock.

MR. BOB SMITH: -- you know, it's a real shock. And -- and I get back to -- to the -- the dollar cost, and I recognize that now is a cheaper time to do things. But also our economy is pretty down the hill, too. And our income is certainly less than --

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Yeah.

MR. BOB SMITH: -- we had imagined.

COMMISSIONER FRANK BURT: That's right.

MR. BOB SMITH: And that's what you gentleman have got to face.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Oh, yeah.

MR. BOB SMITH: We're appreciate you hearing us.

COMMISSIONER DAVID BISHOP: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES "SKIP" GRUBER: Thank you very much.

COMMISSIONER WAYNE GRUENLOH: Thank y'all